Although I left the Mormon Church decades ago, I'm still a member. Quitting seemed like a bigger hassle than what it was worth--the requirement to appear before a "Bishop's Court" felt too much like a violation of my personal sovereignty.
I feel differently now that the Church has essentially endorsed torture. I can't allow my name to be associated with them any longer, not even nominally. I'm sending my resignation letter today. I urge you to do the same. Instructions for doing so can be found here. Please be sure to cite their endorsement of torture as your reason for leaving.
From what I understand, Bishop's courts or interviews are not always required anymore, but I'm going to demand one in my letter. I want to hear them explain why they oppose a bill to ban torture while supporting efforts to persecute gays. I want my local Church apparatchiks to consider what's being done in their name.
Sunday, November 27, 2005
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Right on!
I just had my name taken off their records years ago. I wish I had thought to do it your way.
Make them squirm for all the squirming I did as a kid.
Keep up the good work.
If people are interested in resigning, I'd suggest, instead of the IRR site, Kathy Worthington's Mormon No More site.
http://www.mormonnomore.org/
Sister :) Worthington has lots of experience with resignation letters and even has Greg Dodge's phone number. (He's the head of the resignation department.)
If I were to choose to resign, I'd do it Kathy's way, not the IRR way, simply because she's not pushing another religion on you, and the IRR is.
If you don't consider yourself a member, you shouldn't be on the rolls. But jumping to the conclusion that the church has "essentially endorsed torture" because they refused to sign some petition, when they've come out with a statement saying they do not endorse it? That's a very Republican tactic. "You're either with us or against us," eh?
But jumping to the conclusion that the church has "essentially endorsed torture" because they refused to sign some petition, when they've come out with a statement saying they do not endorse it? That's a very Republican tactic.
Bullshit, 'anonymous'. By refusing to sign the petition, the officials of the Mormon church attempt to play both sides of the moral coin when they issue their vague statement. Methinks they don't want to sacrifice their political power (that they've derived from hoodwinking thousands of narrow-minded reactionaries like Kay Anderson) to the basic Christian values they claim to espouse. Sound a lot more like Pharisees than Christians to me.
Oh, yes, and while we're on the topic:
The Mormons have done more than tacitly endorse the Bush administration's use of torture. One of their prominent members, Jay Bybee, helped lay the 'legal' foundation of excuses used by the administration. I don't suppose he has to worry about getting hauled before the "Bishop's Court" anytime soon, eh?
If you're looking at this from an historical perspective, the Mormon church-- by cravenly and cowardly condoning official use of torture-- is in danger of putting itself in some pretty notable company.
Stick 'Godwin's Law' up your arse, read 'em, and weep:
Nazis and the Church
Anoneroni,
I have some wonderful, active LDS friends, and in discussing Gay weddings etc., they have specifically stated that the Church likes to stay out of things, and not be politically active. This of course is completely bogus. Church leaders are allowed to vet changes in Utah alcohol laws while the Bills are still in committee and the Church does like to selectively issue pronouncements timed with certain legislation. Because of these selective pronouncements, it is more than fair to ask them where they stand on particular issues, and beyond that, to ASK them to take a stand.
I completely back the Church versus Baptist yahoos that totally disrupt stuff around Temple Square, but for them to get a little criticism over something as black and white as torture, come on, please take off you Church Apologist™ hat.
If you think that the actions of some members of the church proves endorsement of the church as a whole, or even the church leaders, you might want to re-check your logic. Jay Bybee is prominent in the US government, but not particularly prominent in the LDS church. His feelings on torture prove about as much about the feelings of the LDS church as John Kerry's feelings on abortion prove about the Catholic church; namely that some in the church will agree with him, and some in the church will not, and furthermore that he is not necessarily representative of the feelings of the church leadership. Whether Bybee's actions or feelings on such things are grounds for church disciplinary measures is not really something I know enough about to comment on, but I wouldn't be surprised if the church was wary about disciplining members for political beliefs.
You seem to feel that there is only one reason why an organization might choose not to sign this petition. Again, this "with us or against us" black and white view is one of the biggest criticisms of the Bush administration. Perhaps the church simply has a policy against signing petitions. There would be many practical reasons for such a policy. Or perhaps they take issue with some of the wording or other details of the petition, or they might find some issue with particular legislation being proposed. Maybe they feel the petition will be ineffectual, or that there is a better way to oppose torture. There are a number of reasons why not signing this petition does not prove the church's endorsement, tacit or otherwise.
And I do not see how the statement, "[The church] condemns inhumane treatment of any person under any circumstances" is particularly vague.
Anonymous, it should have therefore been easy for them to take the next step and explicitly support legislation consistent with said statement. They didn't. They have specifically spoken out against the legalization of gay marraige, so they have discussed specific legislation before, like they do with most legislation in the state of Utah. They simply refuse to criticize the current administration and this seems odd. It shouldn't be hard for them to come out and say "we deplore the torture of human beings. we do not support waterboarding." They won't do it.
Hear, hear, Pinko.
And I'm willing to spit in Godwin's eye yet again:
'Anonymous', very few Germans were officially in the Nazi Party during the height of the Third Reich. In fact, in the 1920s and '30s many 'good, decent' Germans thought the Nazis were excessive, strident buffoons. However, that didn't stop those good, decent, rationalizing Germans from seig heil-ing all the way to genocide and war.
Capisce?
I do get tired o' people rationalizing how the "Church Leaders" are thinking, and the reason for this, is the Church is quite cryptic on many a subject while crystal clear on others. It is precisely these intermittent intrusions into politics that gets them into trouble and makes them appear disingenuous. They use the "we aren't involved in politics" line a lot, then they comment on specific policies and specifically shape them. If you lived in Utah as a non-Mormom, Anonymous, you'd be a lot more sensitive to Church Bullshit and Hypocrisy™. And I still defend them against the Baptist whackos. I just know they'd never have my back on anything.
Odds are they won't hold a disciplinary council if you send a letter. They have an administrative procedure for "name removal" now. IMHO, this whole torture deal shows once more that this is an American church, and not a international church. I doubt they would think twice about condemning torture by the Iranian or Chinese governments, yet, when it's the good ol' U.S. of A., they wimp out.
Personally, I opted for the excommunication process--and man, was it fun! I got to sit there and tell an entire High Council all my reasons for believing that the right thing to do was leave the church. Of course, they thought I was insane or possessed, but I didn't care. I got a surprising amount of closure from it.
And I do not see how the statement, "[The church] condemns inhumane treatment of any person under any circumstances" is particularly vague.
By Anonymous, at 6:32 PM
It is obviously "vague" enough for the church members who beat the crap out of the spouses and kids while brainwashing them with some pervert's demented writings that only validated his sex addiction.
I joined the Mormon church also while I was in the Navy about 16 years ago. A friend convinced me but some of their beliefs didn't jive with me so I quit going.
Now out of the blue I have Mormons visiting me.
I've heard rumor that they support Bush - I'm still investigating, if I find it to be so, I'll have to do that official thing and quit, because Bush is evil and Jesus would have never voted for him.
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